kenoslogs | 2024 catch-all

I wouldn’t have guessed, [Demeisen comments, eyebrows raised with what appears to be modest interest.

The news that his current speaking companion is not human comes to him as a mild surprise. After all, he not only looks human, but also scans convincingly as one by the various readings he’s been getting from the other man. What oddities he’d registered, he’d assumed were likely some quirk of Sebastian’s particular branch of pan-humanity. He has, after all, never heard of England, likely because the place is apparently mired in a stage of civilizational development that makes it completely irrelevant to the rest of the developed galaxy.

This news does make Sebastian’s lack of any kind of high rather more suspicious, though.]

I ask because this place reads not unlike a playground someone might set up if they wanted to live out some heroic fantasy with their pals: be the chosen one, save the universe, that kind of thing. Or make a new one, as the case may be. [A small nod, here, to his Zenith buddy.] Memory mods to block out aspects of reality wouldn’t be uncommon there, but there’s no fucking way I’d have plunked myself into a sim like this.

[And the idea that someone else might borrow his mind-state for their own entertainment is too bizarre to devote any real thought to. It just wouldn’t be worth the attention they’d get from his fully-endowed self, even if they managed to scoop his soul out from under the ship’s proverbial nose.

He shakes his head, putting the thought out of his mind.]

The “separate” place you come from was quite different, I assume.

You are not supposed to.

[ Sebastian concedes to his surprise like it's a compliment. He gives a little nod of his head and a pleased little smile, but takes another leisurely drag from the pipe as he listens. His brow knits together lightly as Demeisen describes the fantasy, but then more at "memory mods" and "sims".

They're not totally new words to him, but he's only ever overhead them in Kowloon and mostly as snippets. It gets him to hum thoughtfully, and he pulls his pipe away as he looks at Demeisen a bit differently. It's as if he's trying to read something from his appearance, but admittedly, even he's not completely sure what he might see that might be more insightful. ]

Ah— I believe I understand some of the disconnect though not the full context. I have at least heard of those words before, but I barely know what they mean...

[ He frowns, since he hates to admit his ignorance in any respect, but. This one does seem more fair than most. ]

The place I come from is indeed very different from the human realm, but in this respect they are woefully similar. Actually, my realm is much worse in this regard, really, but I have taken great efforts to learn from humanity... Still, there are gaps that often appear here in Kenos. Your everyday is significantly more advanced than my own was, I would venture. So, I do apologize, but you will have to explain a bit further for me. What would a "memory mod" or a "sim" entail?

[Hmm. Sebastian hasn’t really elaborated anything at all about the place he came from, has he? Or what he actually is, Demeisen notices. That’s fine, though; it’s not of critical importance right now, not when the question of this reality and this world looms much more saliently in the midst of their conversation.]

I don’t suppose you’d have those, no.

[Obviously a civilization that’s only just starting to figure out electricity won’t have anything like the sort of scenario he’s thinking of. They probably haven’t even invented computers yet, much less figured out how to integrate a mind with one.]

Sim: simulation. A reality housed inside a computer, run using its processing power. [There’s a very real chance his companion still isn’t understanding him, but there’s a limit to how much Demeisen is willing to dumb things down, even when he’s trying to be accommodating. Idly, he waves a hand again at the bar around them.] It’s what I thought all this might be. Sprouting up at the base of a giant tree like a fucking mushroom, after seeing everything in my observable vicinity get annihilated. Thought someone might’ve transferred my mind-state here—maybe even just copied it. Not that any of that should be possible without my knowing, but thus the memory mods.

[He taps one temple with his free hand.]

Mind-state is just data. All you have to do is edit it when you bring someone into the sim, turn off the memories you don’t want, add ones you do. Sort of thing helps immersion, done voluntarily, but it’s not hard to do without someone’s say-so, if you’re of an unscrupulous persuasion. Trivially easy, actually.

Ah—

[ It’s an “ah” of recognition, since at least thanks to Kenos (and Amos), Sebastian has learned about computers. Not much, granted, but he at least knows they’re something that exists and the basics of them. They’re still a bit beyond his imagination for what they can truly do, but he’s not totally ignorant, at least. ]

Interesting. I have not heard that theory, rather obviously. I have nothing to refute it except my own belief that the differences would be noticeable, and that is hardly solid proof.

[ He makes a thoughtful noise and cants his head lightly. He falls into a brief silence as he considers it more, even taking a drag of the pipe as he does so, but he won’t privately meditate on it long while they’re having a conversation. ]

Well, where does the data come from, I suppose would be my question. Extracting memories, for example.

[ He has a guess just because he’s sharp, but he won’t make the assumption. ]

[Demeisen offers no rebuttal to Sebastian’s skepticism; he has his own doubts that the man would in fact be able to tell the difference, but there’s no reason to belabour the point when the entire issue is that it would be impossible to tell either way. Instead, he considers the question.]

Essentially, it’s as simple as reading it.

[He has no intention of attempting to explain the technology involved to this person, both because of his unfamiliarity with even modestly advanced tech, and because he simply doesn’t need to know. The Culture has long benefited from a bit of an aura of mystery when it comes to what the civilization is truly capable of.]

A very rough analogy would be to imagine a person’s mind-state as a journal, copied in its entirety at a precise moment in time. Every letter, every mark, every errant scribble or smudge represents the person’s thoughts, feelings, experiences and so on. Whether the mind is bio-chemical, mechanical, electronic, whatever—

[Demeisen slices his free hand through the air.]

Doesn’t matter. Complexity of the mind would affect the difficulty of accessing and parsing the information, but not the broad mechanics. So: you could read the journal easily, but it wouldn’t be much harder to edit it, make additions, or rip pages out. And of course—if you wanted—you could also reproduce it, even if the original still existed.

Well, it is that "whatever" that I am interested in, in fact. Since in that regard, I assume I am a rather special case... And so, it could help with this simulation theory, I suppose.

[ It does mean being rather blunt about what he is, which is a shame, but the larger question of Demeisen's theory is more intriguing than his own playfulness. He gestures towards himself generally as he speaks. ]

I am something rather beyond the biological, personally. I take up a biological form for convenience, but many of the structures are just for show. The brain, for example. I possess one, but only because in the event I were to sustain a head injury, it would be quite odd if nothing were there. But it does not function in the slightest.

[ He's completely sure about that, because most of what he even knows about the human brain is now from his studies in Kenos. The science of the late 19th century when it came to a brain's functionality seemed rudimentary to him in comparison now... But it's also not as if it particularly mattered in this case. It's not like having it truly function would do anything for him or help bolster the illusion of his humanity. ]

So, it is more my curiosity how it would be accessed, in that case. Not impossible, presumably, but that sort of data would be... Well, I assume it is more difficult to access in this case.

[Demeisen eyes Sebastian curiously as he explains, tapping one fingernail idly against the stem of his pipe. Strange that he says “beyond the biological.” Demeisen doesn’t entirely know what that might mean in this context, but he’s guessing it isn’t anything as simple as Sebastian simply having synthetic enhancements.

If the higher sensory functionality from his effectors was online, he’d take a look at the activity levels in the brain in question, see for himself if it was really just a lump of meat—but like a great many of his capabilities, that particular one has been denied him ever since he crawled out of the dirt beneath the Tree. He’ll have to take the man’s word for it.]

That’s less than usual, [he admits.] Still, not exactly unheard of. Plenty of eminently strange life forms in the wide, wonderful galaxy. Centralized brain is an optional feature, as I understand it.

[He shrugs, apparently unbothered by the revelation of Sebastian’s fake human brain.]

Case like yours might make it harder, though. I couldn’t really say with any authority; been short on most of my faculties since I arrived. Can’t take a peek, myself.

Is it? How curious... Matters of the galaxy are also rather new to me, so do pardon my ignorance. Kenos has done wonders to educate me on how vast and diverse the world could be, but so much of it is still very theoretical for me.

[ Sebastian makes another light, thoughtful noise, and there's a bit of lightness to it too. Mention of the galaxy does spark just a bit of his wonder for that great beyond. He'd been amazed over a year ago to learn that humanity would eventually set foot on the moon, and it's been similarly fascinating to learn just how far thinking beings could go beyond even that.

(Or, the demon has a rare, pure interest in space travel, wow.)

Though he does give Demeisen a nod of understanding at that last part. ]

Ah, you have yet to Harmonize yet, I take in? In that case you will at least find those will return to you when you do. Most likely, at least. There are some things that do not return, but it is somewhat arbitrary... Yet I have heard of nothing important being so blocked, at least.

Consider it pardoned, [he says magnanimously.

Being not the most adroit when it comes to noticing or anticipating others’ emotions, Demeisen actually finds the faint bleed of wonder filtering off the other man somewhat helpful. It’s informative, at the very least. Whatever world Sebastian hailed from originally, clearly getting from there to Earth didn’t involve seeing much of the galaxy.

Even so, Sebastian is doing him a service. What he lacks in knowledge about the wider reality, he at least makes up for in knowledge of this one.]

I’ve heard that before. [The expression on Demeisen’s face is a little pinched, his smile coolly dissatisfied. It’s one more thing about this place that makes it seem just a little unreal: these limitations that seem set in place just because.] Could be you’re right—though not about the most important bits. [His grimace speaks, again, of displeasure, but the feeling coming from him is laced with unease.] Not housed in this unit—this body. Conveniently for whoever wants us here, I expect.

[ The way that Demeisen phrases it is a bit perplexing, but at least that last sentiment is one he understands perfectly. ]

Very much so… I am subject to some additional restrictions that Harmonization did not fix myself, so I also suspect that it is a matter of convenience.

[ But naturally, that makes him all the more curious about the question of what Demeisen is. He’s talked to a handful of others who have been similarly afflicted, but the common denominator amongst them all was sheer power. Sebastian is hardly one to judge a book by its cover, considering his own penchant for taking on a less threatening form, but. ]

Though, I hope you will forgive me the slight rudeness of asking… But with how you talk of your body, I am curious indeed. What are you, sir?

[Ah—so this inhuman gentleman from the mysterious other world is experiencing a bit of inconvenience in that area as well. The fact that he readily admits that not all of Demeisen’s capabilities might return inspires rather a lack of confidence, which doesn’t hurry him at all in his decision of whether to Harmonize to one side or the other, or to none at all.

(But of course, none is not truly an option. Not when his faculties are so severely hampered, even considering just the limits of this humanoid body.)

Even so, he doesn’t have any fear in divulging what he truly is.]

Ship avatar, [he says, and then, considering that this might not be immediately obvious to Sebastian,] Starship, that is. I’m the passing-for-human face of the Culture warship Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints.

[A ship that, according to local wisdom, is now obliterated into nothingness… or near-nothingness, if one wishes to believe the more optimistic view of Springstar residents. Demeisen isn’t necessarily ready to believe this to be the truth, but whatever the case may be, the ship certainly isn’t anywhere near here.]

So unless the Tree is going to squeeze out my better half at some point, [—all one-point-six kilometres of it—] the important bits are not going to be in evidence.

Oh.

[ Just “oh”, at first, because this does put their conversation so far into a new context that has it making more sense, but then there’s everything else. The idea of a starship isn’t new to him, since he and Amos had talked briefly about the idea of travel in space, and naturally humans would need a ship to do so. When he and Amos had talked about it, he’d thought of it as the logical progression of humanity’s penchant for exploration. From caravels to starships, naturally.

However, it’d never come up that such a ship might be… alive, he supposed it must be. At least that would be the case by Sebastian’s definition, since it meant that this ship had a soul. How else would he be here as a Shard-Bearer otherwise? ]

How fascinating…

[ His wonder returns, though there’s a clear, more scholarly interest behind it this time. He’s tempted to truly look and see Demeisen’s soul for what it is, but… He’ll wait for that. There will be a better opportunity eventually than in a drug den, surely. ]

But I see the issue, I believe. So, yes, I do doubt that you will be made whole in that sense… [ He hums out a note, then laughs a little at himself. ] My, I have so many questions that I scarcely know where to start. Is it stifling to be in such a form?

[The surprise and curiosity—easily felt through the Aspect bond, even if in only a muted fashion—is more like what Demeisen had been expecting when he mentioned this fact to Amos shortly after his arrival. Somewhat ironic that that Sebastian, who isn’t even a human being, is more obviously taken aback by the idea of a ship avatar than Amos the Regular Human Guy.

Though it does mean, of course, that this fellow is going to want him to explain more. As Demeisen is happy to chat, however, and also interested in learning some things himself, this doesn’t seem like any real trial.]

Not in the way you might think. This body is mine—I made it. [The ship made it. Whatever.] And the me that’s here is smaller than the ship in more than just size and power. This unit doesn’t have a Mind. [The capital letter in this word is audible.] So I am, for the time being, much more comparable to a person than when I am truly representing the ship itself.

[This is giving me Quetz trying to explain her situation vibes, help…

Demeisen regards Sebastian curiously right back.]

Do you find it stifling? To be limited despite having harmonized already?

[ Sebastian’s brow is knit together in concentration as Demeisen explains, but his attention is sharp and interested. There are some parts that he understands without any issue, such as Demeisen making his own body, but others, such as that capital-M Mind are still a bit perplexing. From context and what they’ve talked about so far, he can at least make a guess (and he’s not terribly far off), but it’s still very much outside his wheelhouse. ]

I believe I understand… Or at least enough so. If you are in this form, you are reduced in the first place, even without Kenos’s meddling?

[ His choice of words is probably answer enough, but he elaborates with a nod. ]

…I do, yes. I have grown accustomed to it, as I have been in this state for over a year by now, but there are very useful things I miss. Most notably, there was no manmade weapon that could truly injure me. I could make a show of it, since the body does get injured, but it was trivial to simply fix any damage, no matter how severe.

[ He sighs longingly ]

I imagine I need not explain how such a thing would come in handy when fighting this little war.

About the size of it.

[Demeisen’s agreement comes easily enough, despite the low undercurrent of disgruntlement at his situation that he cannot entirely ignore. Probably no one in this world is going to understand just how truly powerful—martially, mentally, and otherwise—his ship body is (was?), and he’s not especially invested in filling in all the details regardless. It’s largely irrelevant at present anyway, no matter how used he is to him and the ship being connected.

At Sebastian’s description of his missing ability, however, Demeisen raises an eyebrow, tipping his head meaningfully toward his companion.]

Awfully convenient that it’s gone, I’d say. If someone were to want to keep you in line.

[He’s not suggesting these strange little quirks prove that their scenario was set up by some intelligent hand. Demeisen is perfectly aware of how little information he really has about their situation at present, and how data points can easily be misleading in isolation. Still—suffice to say that this whole thing stinks to him, and he’s far from ready to believe either faction’s promise and go along with things like a meek little soldier.]

[ Sebastian frowns, but he keeps his true thoughts to himself on the suggestions. If that’s what they wanted, there would be much more efficient and much more strict ways to do so. It might be possible that this theoretical someone might know better than to provoke his ire by trying to bind him, but also… If they’re that skilled and powerful, it seems odd to him that they would care.

Of course, the fact that this is something he’s susceptible to isn’t something he likes to broadcast. People that know of demons usually have he general idea, but they don’t know just how ruinous it could be for him in the right hands. So. Better to just not speak of it. ]

…Well, perhaps. I had guessed that it was perhaps because things are so much more diverse here than where I am from that the typical rules did not apply. Even a mundane weapon could technically be infused or empowered by magic here. But that is the sort of theory I know little about. Magic… Well, it existed, but I could not use it, and it was something humanity had largely lost as an art.

[ He shrugs. He’s getting off track, so back to Demeisen’s point: ]

There are other things that are missing or reduced that are not so meaningful, though. I can no longer conjure a building either, but that is not something I miss, really.

Edited 2024-02-02 17:20 (UTC)

[Even if Demeisen were not of the Stargazer aspect, the surprise on his face would make his interest plain enough when Sebastian adds to his own experiences.]

From nothing? [he asks, with genuine curiosity. Ships had the ability to make things appear, of course, but it wasn’t creation; even if they were to “conjure” something so large, it would be simply transported there from somewhere else. It would have to be manufactured normally (or at least, normally by the standards of their still rather fantastical capabilities).]

Magic’d be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek term where I’m from. There’s no such thing, really; just tech people might not understand.

[And even as one of the more high-level civs playing around in the galaxy, the Culture certainly didn’t understand everything it encountered. Sebastian’s case is interesting, however, because his capabilities are so advanced, and his knowledge of technology is so pifflingly limited.]

What’s your deal, then?

[ Sebastian nods, and with a thoughtful noise as he considers what to make, he goes with something simple. He holds out his free hand towards Demeisen, and very suddenly, what seems to be dark shadows coalesce from the little shadows cast by wrinkles and folds of his clothing. They come together to form a pipe—an identical replica of the one that Demeisen holds—and it’s near instantaneous. It’s held out for Demeisen to take and inspect for himself if he’d like, and truly everything about it matches the original one he holds. ]

It is something that many of my kind are able to do. Not all, since it is something that comes with a bit of, ah… [ He pauses again, then shrugs. ] Well, I shall simplify it and call it prestige.

[ The hierarchy of Hell and how demons gain their power is too much for an introductory conversation. He also hasn’t gotten a good read on how Demeisen might take such a brutal story, so he doesn’t particularly want to get into it. ]

I am a demon. If you have heard of us, perhaps considerably different than what you may know, since there are many, many tales of us... But a demon all the same.

[When Sebastian manifests the pipe, Demeisen takes in the rapid coalescence of it with keen eyes, and then sits back a little and whistles.]

Nice trick.

[He will take the pipe, taking a drag from the original as he lifts the copy with his free hand, turning it delicately with his fingertips. It really does appear to be the same in every single way—though he can’t know for sure, of course. He’s not the ship; he can’t scrutinize it down to the individual atoms to check if it’s really a perfect copy. But to his senses, which surpass those of humans even in his limited state, it is still exact enough to be impressive.

He also notes with interest that Sebastian seems to make the pipe from himself, or from the shadows he casts, and he wonders if his human body was fabricated just the same way. It’s something he can only laugh about, when he finally hears what Sebastian is.]

You would be different, then.

[He’ll hand the extra pipe back, having seen all he wanted to from it, and though the little bubble of merriment is obvious in both his expression and his emotional state, his hand is completely steady.]

Not this, necessarily. [He waves his original pipe at Sebastian’s fake human appearance.] Different civs all have their own ideas of what hell is like; perhaps you’d fit in some of them. But—to return to our earlier topic—you might be interested to know that all real demons where I’m from, in as much as there are such things, exist in sims: virtual hells some of the more perverted civilizations create to send people to after death.

[He laughs again, briefly, then shakes his head.]

Not the same thing, of course. Certainly the demons don’t get out to gambol around in the Real.

[ Merriment is new, but it’s a good sign. Naturally, he much prefers a positive reception, just as anyone would. He takes back the pipe as he listens, but he only holds it for a moment before it seems to revert back to those dark shadows, and they dissipate as quickly as a fine mist. Not even a hint of it remains, but Sebastian doesn’t even pay it any mind, since he’s more interested in what Demeisen says. ]

Oh, my. Truly a hell of their own making.

[ Sebastian cants his head thoughtfully as he takes another little drag from the pipe, since that’s a curious thought. Humanity had influenced Hell, absolutely. Demons were whimsical, in their way, so they had taken on some aspects from human stories essentially for the fun of it—cloven hooves, pitchforks, all the usual tropes could indeed be found. But that’s not the same as humans truly making it. What would their Hell look like…? ]

As you mention multiple, you need only pick one, but I must ask… What are they like, do you know?

[Demeisen had supposed that the pipe might disappear when Sebastian accepted it back; he watches it dissipate with just as much curiosity as he’d had for its formation to begin with, watching it dissolve back into what seems very much like nothingness. Fascinating.]

The hells? [He quirks an eyebrow.] No idea—beyond the obvious, of course. Point of hell is that it’s full of appalling cruelty, so of course that’s a constant feature, in whatever forms their different creators are able to dream up. As for the specifics, though…

[Demeisen shrugs.]

Couldn’t say. Might be that the ship would know; at the very least, it’d be trivial for it to find out. As an avatar, though, most of the people I interacted with were friendly, wholesome types. [He smiles pleasantly through what is both a baldfaced lie and also still basically the truth; at the very least, the people he spent time with also mostly tended to be part of the Culture, which meant that even the quirkier ones condemned the concept of maintaining hells to torture actual thinking people.] And, more to the point, even the civs that did maintain hells didn’t tend to broadcast them for public viewing.

Ah, I suppose that is fair enough… The mystery of it probably serves the motivational purpose better.

[ Sebastian makes another thoughtful noise, since it really is an interesting topic to him of how it’s so reversed in this case. ]

You know, there was a misconception about Hell. Humanity had an idea that we would inspire people to do evil acts, but it was exceptionally rare, and not in the way that they imagined. They are perfectly capable of it on their own. Why waste the effort to interfere? And so too with Hell itself. Many of its torments came from human creativity, not ours…

[ And this is how they have a lovely, normal conversation. Yikes. What a way to forge a friendship (?), but that’s just how it goes with weirdo inhumans, apparently. ]

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